devaluing – But Now I Know Your Name

The Narcissist’s Fascination With You — At First

A lonely frog goes to a psychic to ask what her future holds. “Well,” says the psychic, looking into her crystal ball. “I see that you are going to meet a handsome man. He will be completely fascinated and want to know absolutely everything about you.”

The frog is thrilled, “This is great!” she replies. “Will I meet him at a party?”

“No,” says the psychic, “biology class.”

How many of us have realized that what felt at first like true interest turned out to be being dissected in biology class? This is classic behavior of a toxic narcissist. It can feel like you’ve been put under a microscope, with them fascinated by every detail of your life, your interests, your values, etc. At first it seems like they simply can’t learn enough about you. This can, of course, be misinterpreted as love, when in reality that is far from the truth.

What, then is it and why do they do this? A few thoughts come to mind:

ONE: It’s a classic way to love bomb someone. Paying what seems like rapt and sincere attention is a very good way for narcissists to catch someone in their sticky web. Who doesn’t want to feel like they are fascinating, unique, and special? This sort of attention can feel like water in the desert, especially for any of us who have been neglected, devalued, and/or taken for granted in our families of origin or past relationships. It can be the thing we most crave and never really believe we’ll get. No wonder we feel like we’ve met a soul mate when someone is that curious about us.

TWO: It is a way to gather intel to be used against us later. The more they know about our hopes, dreams, wounds and painful memories, they more they are able to hit us in our vulnerable places. It is easiest and most effective to go for the tender spots where a person has shown themselves to be sensitive when you want to devalue and/or manipulate someone. Also, the more a narcissist knows about you, the more subtle they can be. And the more subtle they can be, the less likely their tactics will be seen for what they are.

THREE: They typically love shiny new things. It may even be the case that they are interested in you–at first. You are fascinating because the unknown always is, in the beginning. So in this case, the interest can be genuine because you are providing stimulation. For healthy people, this “oh-my-god-you’re-so-amazing” stage naturally transitions to one of deeper trust and connection. They may not be as stimulated and surprised by their partner, but that’s ok. They feel connected and safe.

But narcissists don’t seem to have the ability to transition to this next stage of relationship. Instead of feeling deeper trust and connection with you, they feel bored and annoyed. Bored because you hold few surprises for them, and annoyed because you were supposed to be the one who saved them from their own limitations as a human being.

And so, with most narcissists, after the fascination comes the dissection. Instead of being the object of their interest and curiosity, they simply want to take you apart.

What to do about this? Be careful and go slowly with anyone who is too curious at first. There is a natural deepening of trust over time in healthy relationships. Non-narcissists don’t typically feel they need to know everything about someone right away. Rather, they trust they will learn more as the relationship progresses.

If you get pressured to share more than you are comfortable sharing, or shamed for not being “more open” with a new person, this is a red flag. It may not mean that this person is awful and untrustworthy, but it is a sign to slow down a bit and see how things unfold.

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A professional coach can help you unpack all the treatment you received in a narcissistic relationship/toxic workplace. Contact Ann to talk about one-to-one coaching.

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ABOUT THE AUTHOR

Ann Betz is the co-founder of BEabove Leadership and an expert on the intersection of neuroscience, coaching, trauma and human transformation. She speaks, trains and coaches internationally, and writes about neuroscience and coaching as well as relational trauma. Ann is also a published poet who loves cats, rain in the desert, and healthy relationships.

You Are So Much More than What the Narcissist Says

Whether it is in the workplace, family, intimate partnership, or even friendship, one of the most destructive things a narcissist does is to change the way you think about yourself. And not, my friends, for the better.

They have many tricks up their sleeve in how they attempt this. It can be done overtly or covertly, through subtle implication or outright contempt, by criticism or lack of interest, by competing with you or insinuating that what you are up to is worthless, etc. I like to say that narcissists are never as amazing or talented as they think they are, but they are masters of this arena, brilliantly knowing just how to match the devaluation to the target for maximum impact.

However they do it, four main reasons why come to mind:

ONE: It’s challenging and therefore fun for them. As we’ve talked about a lot in this blog, most people get targeted by narcissists not because they are weak, small and vulnerable, but because they are bright, big and really cool. A narcissist wants a good “catch” working for them or as a romantic partner. Even a narcissistic parent wants a kid they can brag about. But once they have you in their web, they tend to love the game of trying to take you down. And they need someone with some chutzpah and spark for it to be interesting.

One example of this is a telling scene in episode one of season four of Succession, currently on HBO. The extremely narcissistic father has at this point driven away most of his children. He is at his birthday party surrounded by employees, and it becomes clear he is bored out of his skull without his children there to bully and banter with. He even begs to be “roasted” in an attempt to get some much-needed narcissistic supply. But the sycophants around him are not up to the engagement, and it clearly leaves the father frustrated and unfulfilled.

(If you, like me, are fascinated by this show, you might be interested in Dr. Ramani’s ongoing analysis of the characters and plot — in this episode she talks about the scene I mentioned.)

TWO: If they can change the way you think about yourself, it makes things ever so much easier for them. While a big, bright, bold target is attractive, they are difficult to control and dominate. Anyone who remains too confident will get tired of being devalued and will move on, so narcissists know they need to break your spirit as soon as they can.

Because targets also tend to be high in traits such as empathy and loyalty, unfortunately this strategy can work well for a narcissist. Most targets don’t give up easily, and we tend to take seriously the criticism lobbed at us, even if it has little accuracy. Am I like that? Let me look at myself. Do I “always” do something that is not so great? I’ll examine this and try to change. After all, I want to be a good partner, and I want to grow. Narcissists know this, and they exploit it.

This treatment often has the impact of making the target overly cautious and on edge, suppressing their natural confidence or exuberance in order to please the narcissist. And if we do this long enough, it can start to feel like who we are. Ugh.

THREE: This may be the most obvious, but the only way they have any sense at all of their own value and place in the world is through comparison to others. And of course, they must be the ones on top at all times. In any sort of relationship, this means that the target simply has to be less than them in every possible way.

If you are too confident and sure of yourself, the narcissist is secretly terrified you will show up better and shinier than them. While there might be a short time early on where your accomplishments look good as a reflection of who they are, this fades quickly as they realize you are getting attention that might be going to them. If they can make you question yourself, your value, and your behavior, you’ll back off in public and leave more yummy “supply” for them.

FOUR: You have disappointed them. You were put on a pedestal at first in the love-bombing stage, as you were supposed to be the perfect answer to all their unfulfilled needs. Soon enough, you showed that you were human, with imperfections and needs of your own. This is infuriating to the narcissist, and they actually feel betrayed by your inability to live up to who you were supposed to be. They devalue you as payback for not being their fantasy employee, partner, friend or child.

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I want to repeat the title here — you are so much more than what the narcissist says you are. I am reminded about how we are advised to read or view the news — we are cautioned to “consider the source.” A narcissist is never a good source to consider when we are assessing how to see ourselves. Rather, in the healing journey we need to be surrounded by people who can help us remember that we are bigger, brighter, and more of a contribution to the world than what we may have come to believe.

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A professional coach can help you unpack all the treatment you received in a narcissistic relationship/toxic workplace. Contact Ann to talk about one-to-one coaching.

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ABOUT THE AUTHOR

How Narcissists Can Disrupt Our Pursuit of Mastery

How Narcissists Disrupt our Core Needs Series: Need number three, our need for mastery or competence.

The third of our six core needs (as mentioned in the first post in this series), is the need for mastery or competence. Mastery is defined as “comprehensive knowledge or skill in a subject or accomplishment,” and this need is actually linked to need #2, the need for autonomy. Without feeling we have a certain amount of control over our own choices we simply can’t pursue things to the point of feeling highly competent (that is, masterful).

And every human being at some level longs to feel this sort of ability in some domain of their lives in order to be truly fulfilled. It could be professional such as reaching a particular level in your career, personal such as an accomplishment in a craft, hobby or sport, in the family such as an aspect of parenting, or simply being a great friend.

Narcissists? They don’t want you to feel this because a) they tend to lack the focus, patience, discipline and depth to reach true mastery themselves, preferring to skate by on charm and manipulation tactics; and b) it makes you feel good, which might make you empowered to leave them — or at a minimum question and push back on their control and devaluing. (In my next post on core needs I’ll explore our need for self-esteem, which is related here.)

When I got involved with a malignant narcissist a few years ago, I was already fairly far in my professional life. I had a successful international training business, and a thriving coaching practice. The X was new to the coaching field (god save us all) and I thought we’d have good fun comparing notes and helping each other develop even further. How cool that we were in the same profession! How helpful!

The fun part, dear reader, lasted all of a couple months. And then, when he moved from love bombing me to the devaluing stage, he craftily used my passion for my work to get under my skin. I’d mention something I was excited about in my continuing neuroscience studies, and he would roll his eyes, saying “Some people need that sort of thing, I have moved past it myself.” Or he would give me the barest acknowledgment and then change the subject, never asking a follow-up question or showing the slightest interest. He refused to even look at any of the powerful models of tools we had created, and was generally patronizing about everything I said or did.

Now, I suppose it’s not fair to say he prevented me from achieving mastery, but he sure was good at taking the wind out of my sails. It was definitely a downer that I couldn’t share my interest and enthusiasm with the person I thought I was closest to, not to mention the ongoing disdain he expressed for all things I held dear.

I found myself feeling stupid, uninteresting, and unmotivated, especially when I was home. Luckily at that time I was traveling, often in the company of my beloved business partner and best friend, who (bless her heart) always seems to find me and my ideas fascinating. I would go on a business trip and feel like myself again, only to return home and feel dull. Thank goodness I had the blessing of this contrast, as it was one of the first clues I had that something was really wrong. If it hadn’t been for my partner and my students and colleagues, I really think I might have begun to believe I had little to offer the world, much less find the motivation to push myself further and explore true mastery.

And this is, I believe not an unusual story when one is dealing with a narcissist. Their profound jealousy and entitlement make it impossible for them to truly support anyone else. Mention that you have published a book? They are working on the next best seller themselves, or they never felt it was important to publish something, or isn’t the market awfully crowded for that sort of thing? Mention you are pursuing a degree or have an insight about something and you get a similar response. They feel they must deflate you in order to stay inflated themselves.

I have stories about this from throughout my life, as I bet many of you do as well. I met my first husband (truly a grandiose narcissist) when I was 23 and only halfway through a Bachelor’s degree. Every time I expressed an interest in going back to school, he would pooh-pooh it, saying I just wanted to be a student forever, or was too lazy to work like everyone else, or was self-indulgent and not thinking of what was best for the family (i.e. him).

And I listened, as many in these relationships do. And yes, I didn’t have to. I could have done it anyway. But frankly, it’s damn hard to push against strong negativity coming your way, especially when it feels like you will risk everything when you do. School or my marriage? Well, in the case of my first husband, ultimately I chose school and divorced his sorry a**. But it’s not always an easy choice.

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In the process of healing and need some support? Contact Ann for one-to-one coaching.

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ABOUT THE AUTHOR

Why Narcissists Treat You With Contempt When You’re Kind to Them

I don’t want to belong to any club that would accept me as one of its members. ~ Groucho Marx

So there you are, going about your life being caring, kind, respectful and empathetic. And the narcissist, rather than being appreciative of your help, support, and attention, treats you like s**t. If anything, the kinder you are, the colder they are.

WTF is going on? Is this, as my son used to joke, “backwards day” when the world is turned upside down? Why do they behave like that? Well, here are a few reasons off the top of my head:

ONE: To devalue and destabilize you. Devaluing is the second phase of the Idealization, Devalue, Discard cycle. After idealizing (aka love bombing) a person to hook them in, the toxic person will generally begin to use devaluing, taking them down off the pedestal they had put them on. Responding to kindness with contempt is a powerful way to do this. It’s a destabilizing and manipulative, making the person feel they need to work ever harder to win back the approval they had at first. Truly, it’s a mind-f**k.

TWO: Because narcissists operate by a different rule book than decent people. Where most people would express appreciation for help or support, the narcissist’s rules are that they are entitled to whatever you did, said, or gave them. In addition, because they often have contempt for the “social graces” that most people operate by, this can extend to contempt for you if they sense you want a “thank you” or other acknowledgement.

THREE: Because on some level they know they don’t deserve kindness, and they don’t respect anyone who would show it to them. How could you be so stupid as to value them? This is similar to what Groucho Marx said in the quote above (from his letter resigning from the Friar’s club). The fact that you are kind to them actually makes you unworthy of their love or respect. Contrary to popular belief, narcissists are not actually in love with themselves. Instead, they are run by deep and unacknowledged wounds of shame. Anyone who could see someone as valuable when at the bottom of it all that person feels desperately unworthy, well, they’re an idiot.

FOUR: Because it brings up resentment. Their grandiosity makes them feel they should never need anything, so when you help them this reminds them they are not, actually, omnipotent. By the way, this grandiosity is the way the cover up the fundamental shame mentioned above.

For whatever the reason, this treatment is heartbreaking and points out — once again — that you just can’t win with a narcissist.

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In the process of healing and need some support? Join our next group coaching program (starts January 2023) or Contact Ann for one-to-one coaching.

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Want to learn how to work with relational trauma as a coach? Join our next Certification Program for Neuroscience, Coaching and Relational Trauma starting January 2023.

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ABOUT THE AUTHOR

Even a Stopped Clock is Right Twice a Day

Or, another paradox of healing from narcissistic abuse.

In the early days of my healing, I wanted to reject everything, and I mean everything, the narcissist touched in any way. Physically, the thrift shop run by our local animal shelter got every gift he gave me. Mentally, I went through a long and somewhat painful untangling of the lies, nonsense, and ugly things he said while we we were together.

As my nervous system recovered and my own “snow globe” settled, more and more realizations hit me. For example, about a year after leaving, I recall pondering how on earth he had achieved the professional success he talked about, given his lack of education and training for the roles he was in. And all of a sudden it hit me that all I knew was that he said he did these things but I had no actual proof. I had accepted his stories all along and never questioned if they were true.

As I had more of these realizations, I saw that I didn’t have to sign up for his version of reality, and this was liberating. I could and did question everything he believed, from his convoluted personal history to the overly forceful way he insisted on training our dog. And I started to look more critically at some the “wisdom” he imparted, finally seeing it for the shallow, pat, grandiose nonsense it was.

Everything having to do with him was now filed in the “the narcissistic ex was an idiot” drawer in my brain. If he said it, did it, advised it, or thought it, it was obviously wrong.

But lately I have found myself being more willing to allow that there may have been some small — and, dear reader, I do honestly mean small — ways he had valid opinions or insight. For example, he was a big believer in the power of dreams and, while he used a very shallow pool of knowledge to promote himself as a wise and talented healer, he wasn’t totally wrong. I do find that my dreams can sometimes have interesting and useful messages.

He was also fascinated by many areas of human development that overlap mine. Ironically, while he would consistently devalue my own focus on neuroscience, he often would end up reading about the topic himself, occasionally bringing up interesting and even useful tidbits. I ended up reading a couple of books based on his recommendations.

And so, as I heal, I find I have more room to allow some paradox here. I like the metaphor of a stopped clock being right twice a day, in that the ex doesn’t have to be wrong about every single thing. However — and here is part of the power of the metaphor — the clock may be right occasionally, but it’s not reliable. And neither is a narcissist.

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In the process of healing and need some support? Join our next group coaching program (starts January 2023) or Contact Ann for one-to-one coaching.

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Want to learn how to work with relational trauma as a coach? Join our next Certification Program for Neuroscience, Coaching and Relational Trauma starting January 2023.

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ABOUT THE AUTHOR

10 Ways the Narcissist Devalues You

Narcissism Vocabulary Series: DEVALUING

Devaluing is the second phase of the Idealization, Devalue, Discard cycle. When the honeymoon phase begins to wane, the toxic person will generally begin to devalue their partner, taking them down off the pedestal they had put them on during the idealization or “love-bombing” stage. Note that this is different from the normal process of moving out of the initial infatuation of a relationship, when partners begin to see the realness of each other and begin to work to grow closer and develop deeper love and connection.

Here are ten common ways narcissists devalue others. The first two are obvious, the rest may be more subtle and difficult to recognize as the devaluation they really are. (I personally experienced many of the rest of them, and did not realize at the time that I was actually being devalued):

ONE: Overtly criticizing you or belittling you. For example, “Why can’t you make more money? You need to hustle more in your job.” When confronted, protesting that it is just feedback, “for your own good,” or that they are “just being honest.” This could also include saying things like “I don’t know why you think you need such an expensive car (house, jacket, whatever), what are you trying to prove?”

TWO: Overtly insulting you. Distinct from criticism, this is more bold-faced. “You are so stupid, I can’t believe you got this job!” “Wow, are you getting fat.” “You’re lucky I put up with you, no one else would.” Etc.

THREE: Pretending to be mistaken, such as bringing you an XL dress to try on when you are actually a size Medium. “Oh, sorry, it looked like it would fit.” This is really pernicious, because they can simply claim they made a mistake.

FOUR: Being generally uninterested your activities or your accomplishments. This might look like not asking a follow-up question, or changing the subject when you share something important with them, and if confronted, saying something like “What? I heard you. What do you want me to say?” It could also include not showing interest in your activities or accomplishments such as a parent never attending a sports event you are in, or not reading your college essays. Any of this makes us feel we are not really heard, seen, or taken seriously.

FIVE: Saying something about themselves to denigrate your accomplishment. For example, you share you are speaking at an international conference, and your partner says “Oh, that’s nothing, I used to speak to 10,000 people at our annual meeting every year. I always got rave reviews. It’s not big deal, really.” Or conversely, they might say something like “I never really thought that it was important to be in the spotlight that way.” Either way tends to take the wind out of our sails.

SIX: Being grandiose about their own contributions and diminishing yours. For example, saying things like “I do everything for this family! We’d be in the poor house with me!” when you actually contribute significantly to the family finances and/or manage the home. Or, “I have to do everything around here” when you ask them to take out the trash, and the reality is you are doing almost all the household chores yourself. In the workplace, taking all the credit for a team’s or partner’s accomplishment.

SEVEN: Throwing cold water on your hopes and dreams. “Do you really think becoming a doctor is realistic? You aren’t that good at science, you know.” When confronted, they again say they were just trying to be “helpful.”

EIGHT: Fawning over others as a subtle way of comparing you. This could either be about someone else, as in “Wow, that was the BEST presentation on geology I have EVER seen,” when you yourself are a well-known geologist. Or directly to them when you are in earshot, such as, “Hey, you’re really in great shape! Honey, did you see this guy’s six pack? It’s amazing!” when being fit is really important to you. If confronted, you may be accused of “just being jealous” or “making everything about you.”

NINE: Stonewalling or the Silent Treatment. Often done as a form of punishment, this is not only a poor communication strategy, it is a way of showing the target they have no value. For example, when the toxic person outright ignores comments, requests, or conversational attempts.

TEN: Living their lives as if you are not a factor. This might include making significant plans or spending significant money without consulting you, not checking in day-to-day, etc. While this can be normal behavior at some stages of a relationship, what makes it a devaluing situation is the shift from you being “everything to them” in the love bombing stage to feeling like now you are nothing of significance.

And here’s a bonus two:

ELEVEN: The backhanded compliment. “Wow, you did a better job on that report than I thought you would.” “Gee that’s a great haircut, it makes your nose look much smaller.” Again, this is maddening, because the toxic person has plausible deniability if you call them out or protest. “What? I said I liked it!”

TWELVE: Only being interested in your life when things are going badly, and showing little to no interest when they are going well. This can actually masquerade as empathy and concern until you unpack it, because with this sort of devaluing the toxic person will be very curious and concerned about you in times of need. That’s nice, but healthy people are just as curious and interested when your life is going well.

However they devalue you, it tends to feel awful. To go from being sought after and even put on a pedestal to being treated badly or ignored is confusing, destabilizing, creates severe cognitive dissonance and leads to a trauma bond, because we want so badly to get that initial connection back. Sorry to say, as part of the Idealization, Devalue, Discard cycle, it is a classic tactic of a narcissist. If you feel you are being regularly devalued in any one of these (or other ways), it can be very helpful to seek support from a coach or therapist with experience in this area.

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In the process of healing and need some support? Join our next group coaching program (starts January 2023) or Contact Ann for one-to-one coaching.

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Want to learn how to work with relational trauma as a coach? Join our next Certification Program for Neuroscience, Coaching and Relational Trauma starting January 2023.

ABOUT THE AUTHOR

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